SOUTHLANDS DISCUSSION...WHAT WOULD YOU LIKE TO SEE?

If there is anybody out there that thinks that they understand what putting the Southlands in to ALR actually means, I would certainly love to hear your expert opinion.

I also support the new golf course developement, and responsible developement of the southlands. I also agree with what Century has put forth so far. And yes, I will be able to see it from my front room window. I may have missed it but I have yet to see any discussion or arguement for or against the construction of green houses on this precious farmland that seems, in the minds of some, to be off limits to golf courses and housing. Is there a difference? Or do the nay-sayers think the crops are being grown on the land under the glass. I am not against the green houses but am suprised the argument has not been put forth by those opposed to paving over prime agricultural land. Please, tell me the difference. Seems the marginal land would be more suited for green houses. If the agrument has been put forward I missed it. I am also really suprised that these same people who are fighting the battle to save farmland are not opposed to covering all those potatoe and corn fields with blueberries. A crop that in the wild flurishes in less than ideal locations. Makes you wonder what is going on when you consider the afore mentioned fertile land is being replaced with a LOW MAINTENANCE crop of convenience. Do we need to preserve farm land and green space? Of course. Maybe the vocal few should try eating blueberries, it lowers the blood-pressure. And god knows there will be enough of that crop to go around. And stop worring about a rapid increase in population in South Delta. As long as places like Jacks TV and Home Hardware keep jacking their prices Tsawwassen will remain status quo for a long time.

Mike,

Thanks for your comments in the optimist, November 1, 2008.

Its good to know that common sense is alive and well out there somewhere.

Your right, the retail base is sorely lacking in Tsawwassen. Its a 1/2 hour drive to - and then back from - Richmond for decent shopping. People talk about reducing their carbon footprint!

I support the new golf course developement, and responsible developement of the southlands. I like what Century has put forth so far.

People throw up the 'paving over farmland' arguement. Let me ask this. If we were to farm Southlands, what crop would be grown, who would process it, who would market it? What are we going to do live off a steady diet corn?!

I'm voting for Mike Reilly in this municipal election.

Thanks, Rick

I hear this type of remark a lot. Whay do mean when you say things change? Are you saying that we need to have vacant land to run to in case of what? I'm curious.

Muriel Collins had an interesting perspective on things in the Delta Optimist yesterday. If I knew how to attach the article I would but I don't.

She points out some aspects of a development on the Southlands that could be beneficial to tsawwassen. I think that Century Holdings should describe what therir intentions are and allow us to comment.

When people say "when you build on farmland it is lost forever" what do they mean?

I mean, if there was some unbeleievable catastrophe that prevented any kind of food from getting to Tsawwassen and we are unable to physically go ourselves to find food...cuz we were like..too fat or something, could we not just bulldoze a couple of houses down and start again?

Does building on land make the land itself infertile forever?

I think not my people. Rejoice! In a pinch we can grow stuff on the fairways at the new golf course.

There has been a lot of talk about a deceitful Provincial Government carrying out actions that are threatening our Green Space and 'valuable" ALR lands.

Our Mayor and Council have a long history of "head butting" with their Provincial counterparts on all kinds of Issues.

A photo in the Optimist a couple of weeks back showed Corky Evans, Harold Steeves Lois Jackson and Guy Gentner posing on the Delta Port overpass lamenting that a proposed rail-yard would infringe on ALR lands. The reporter referred to the group as a diverse group of politicians. Sure they represent different aspects of municipal and provincial Government but that is where the diversity stops.

They are all politicians from the left in love with an idea that needs to evolve.

They suggest that secret negotiations on behalf of a right wing Government are threatening our "green" lands.

Let's take a look at the recent local story that suggests that Shato Holdings will be asking our local Government to take land that is in the "green zone" out of ALR designation so that alterations to the Golf course and a multi-dwelling housing complex can be built.

Do you think for one moment that Ron Toigo just decided to hold an open house on the fly? That he would approach a developer and marketing people to pitch this development on a whim?

Mr. Toigo is a smart businessman and there is no doubt that out Municipal planners and administrative officers and council have been privy to this proposal for a while.

What about the secrecy here? Do you sense that there is a little hypocrisy at play? How to you square the circle that not one mention of this proposal has been shared with the public.

Could it be that perhaps 'back room dealings" with our council and Mr. Toigo culminated in his recent purchase of the lands in question?

Would Mr. Toigo make the purchase for the status quo on this operation because it is such a great money maker? I don't think so.

How will our Mayor and Council "spin" this one.

Could it be that our Municipality is just as deceitful as they claim the Provincial Government is, or, has our Municipality finally figured out that land use is a serious issue that needs to be dealt with far more attentively than it is now.

Let's hope that this is the case. Let's hope that our council will see that there are marginal lands in our municipality that could be used for our collective benefit. Lands that should not be held on to as the result of political ideology or legacy ideas of what farming is.

If Mr. Toigo is given the opportunity to present something thoughtful and useful that will enhance our community, then we as a community we should take a look at it. We should also be afforded the opportunity to consider other areas where these type of enhancements could take place.

The Southlands come to mind here.

There has been a lot of talk about the "value" of ALR lands. I would like to see some intensive agriculture on the Southlands as a part of a housing development.

Could efficient use here end up producing crops with higher margins? Could smaller yields produce more efficiently than the large vast track of lands that produce low margin commodities?

I can see several housing options on the Southlands. All of any proposed housing does not necessarily have to be of a high density type.

Like in the "Delsom Lands" plan, there could be single detached homes in a development here as well.

Hey Mike:

I was just checking out your blog site and was surprised to see your comments on my column regarding Smart Growth. Personally, I thought I did a poor job in that column of articulating my thoughts, but it's the one column I've received the most positive feedback on. Go figure.
The reason I took a simplistic approach to land use issues is because the column was really about choice. If we choose to live in a low density community and accept the inherit pros and cons, then so be it. There are costs and benefits to all lifestyle decisions we make, and generally one must make sacrifices to achieve the lifestyle they desire. I know that living in South Delta means foregoing some of the amenities found in other communities and I accept that. What I don't understand is why people choose to live in South Delta if they desire a greater range of amenities. The answer I usually get to that question involves everything we enjoy because of our lack of growth. The peaceful atmosphere; the cleanliness; and low crime rate exist because of our lack of growth. Before Richmond exploded they weren't finding dead bodies by the river on a regular basis.
While I agree with many aspects of the "New Urbanism" concept of planning, Smart Growth takes a blanket approach to many issues that just doesn't apply in all situations. As well, I believe they are over-selling their case here in Tsawwassen. There is also the issue of its name that gets under my skin. I'm tired of people selling their ideology on the premise that any opposing view comes from ignorance or stupidity. There's this pattern in almost every policy discussion these days that starts with reasonable debate, and quickly degrades into "children will die and the world will end, and if you don't agree you're ignorant and mean-spirited". If your cause is true you don't need to over-sell or brand your organization with a name that has an inherit insult to those who disagree.
Our choices are constantly being limited "for our own good". I like to be free to choose, even if it means choosing to make stupid decisions.

Dan

I just finsihed reading Dan Southard's Delta Optimist community comment piece and his take on the notion of SMART GROWTH

I think Dan's sentiment best exemplifies how complex the issue really is. His simplistic snapshot of density and land use issues is typical of many points of view that if perpetuated will leave our community sadly lacking in the infrastructure that other communities take for granted.

I, like Dan, love this community but am of the view that things will have to change to maintain the lifestyle we want.

The pleasantville scenario does not do it for me and I believe it to be simply naive.

Let's remember that the notion of "Smart Growth" is simply that .... a notion, especially as it was presented in conjunction with Century Group.

The "Eco-Density" platform for Vancouver makes for an interesting read HERE

Can some of these principles be applied in South Delta or are we expected to tow the line for another couple of generations before we wake up?

So many things would fall in to place with a thoughful approach to the development of the Southlands.

The Following is a definition of "sprawl" as it exists on the SMART GROWTH BC SITE....Sprawl is poorly planned development characterized by the conversion of natural or agricultural land to low-density residential suburbs, commercial centres, and business parks, all separated from one another by roads and parking lots. It means longer distances between homes and work or shopping and heavy reliance on roads and cars. The “convenience� store is now a five-minute drive away, not a five-minute walk.

Because of the low densities and scattered destinations, public transit is often inconvenient and infrequent and heavily subsidized. The over-reliance on cars is supported by huge government subsidies for road building. High investment in road infrastructure induces more car ownership increasing congestion and air pollution.

A word from Sean Hodgins on the Smart Growth series can be read HERE

Take look at the delta archives and see what you think. Were there nimby's then?

Its time for the Left and the right to have a meeting. How about over lunch? Tofu, green tea and organic greens on one side of the table, Big Macs and super-sized fries on the other. Let's compromise. How about organic greens tossed with a little free range chicken There...everyone happy for a second or two? Ok, let's take that little metaphor out to the real world and see if we can get anything done around here. Doubtful! You know what? I am about sick to death of cranky and over reactive activism that seems to dominate our local scene. Endless complaining and whining is supposed to build an army to get something done, or, more likely, undone? The way things are going for the left it would seem that alienation of potential recruits is what may ultimately transpire. The notion of big bad nameless faceless corporate giant plundering our world is really tired. Hey, they're bad and they know it but at least they are willing to contemplate change. That they and governments are often portrayed as subversive secretive and ultimately evil is stereotypical fodder for naive and selfish people who have no intention of communicating let alone collaborating with the forces from the dark side. The boring imagery of the epic David and Goliath struggle and of the champion hemp wearing long hair throwing rocks at the suit and tie set just doesn't do it for me. I'm sick of NIMBYism...it wears really thin. I wouldn't mind it so much if there weren't so much evidence of hypocrisy within its stubborn ranks. An example... the single passenger car traveller who makes an average of 7 trips a day and who buys their groceries from the United States in supermarkets that aren't in their own community but has the gumption to say no to Port Expansion because it will create more traffic problems and increase emmisions. To those folks, you better be prepared to eat rat if you want to start a revolution. I'm sick of political NIMMism (not in my mandate) as well. If you can't take the risk you know you probably should you shouldn't be there in the first place and we were sucked in to voting for you by the strength of your contrived political machine and not by your good looks and mental genius alone. As for the right. You have to continue to find new ways to measure "return on investment" "dividend" and "shareholder value". Is it possible that the people who run your beloved corporations and invest in your relentless quest for market share can ask for a benefit other than a rising share value? What about your recycling programs and your contributions to public facilities and infrastructure? Can you appease your detractors by improving the environment in other areas not easily seen in your core activity. Can you alter your budgets and allocate more funds to sustainable initiatives that may slow your growth but ultimately improve the local environment? Point is that there is are environmental and economic equations, that, like it or not are far more intertwined than both the left and right can imagine. It sounds easy to drop the baggage to facilitate a decent discussion from both sides on many local issues in Delta. The only real path may be to research, listen and educate yourself before you speak. If you are unable to provide useful support for your argument or find yourself unable to compromise with a contrary notion that may prove ultimately useful, you should fight your battles somewhere else. I don't care if you have lived here for three or thirty years. Really, I don't. I welcome your comments.

Muriel Collins point of view on the SOUTHLANDS ISSUE. Take a look....I personally agree with her that we have to listen and more importantly, learn.

I enjoyed reading Ed Ries letter to the editor in the DELTA OPTIMISTtoday. Ed makes a very good point about community stakeholders benefiting from use of the Southlands. If you have been attending the SMART GROWTH BC seminars you will know that there are some very interesting and exciting opportunities for our community in this land. Read Ed's article in full by clkicking the Optimist link above.

A lot of the battles that are fought in our commmunity revolve around transportation and employment. Two of these issues can be dealt with through telecommuting. Take a look at this TELECOMMUTING info and talk to the appropriate people at your place of work. It might work out good for both of you!

Does anyone know what the next session is about? Where can I get more information on what this is all about.

I guess I'm just going to have to keep yapping on the Southlands topic until it's decision time because I can tell its not going away. I also hope that people will make their best efforts to appreciate the concepts that are being shared at the "Smart Growth" series. People should use their visioning skills to picture how our community can improve. Let's remember that all "Official Community Plans" are filled with Platitudes that one day or another actually have to be dealt with. Planning is an excercise that never stops...remember that.

The OCP and the Tsawwassen Area Plan call for densification in the town centre. "In-fill" is the new term. I think most people "get" this notion and the benefits a vibrant core would afford the community.

As our Mayor promised in her inaugural speech, staff are starting with the Ladner area plan. Presumably the Tsawwassen area plan will follow. Our community plan was papered in 1992 and is in need of an update I am afraid.

Fourteen years have passed and South Delta remains in a time warp that has seen school enrollments drop, businesses struggle and few local employment opportunities have presented themselves.

If the Tsawwassen core is in-filled with condos and vibrant retail businesses that is good but let's be honest here...please. No developer or landlord, or the municipality for that matter, is going to build or plan for a gymnasium, softball diamond, ice rink, arts centre, theatre or other public type infrastructure on 56 street between 12th Ave. and 16th. It just ain't gonna happen people!

This is precisely why we should ask ourselves some questions about the Southlands. The first one that comes to mind is what the heck is farmed on this "prime farmland"? If the feed corn that is grown there is taken away are cows and horses going to start dying?

What about another crop? Most farms in the Delta are fortunate to have the Fraser River as the natural source of water for their fields. High tides push the fresh water through the dike system resulting in happy farmers and crops . The Southlands do not have the benefit of Fraser water. Some water percolates naturally from the hills of Point Roberts but generally dries up by July just when the crops need it most so farmers would have to use municipal water here.

The other thing that strikes me is the fact that the Southlands are so isolated and that the lands are not in the ALR. This "prime farmland" is buried behind a billion traffic lights.

I would really like for someone to step up and show us all their great agricultural vision for this land.

Perhaps through mixed use planning something can be done here. "Growing Townhomes" might be quite nice if mixed with fields, niche agricultural use, and a couple of playing fields. To me that is good planning and "Smart Growth".There is a Southlands discussion group available by following the link from www.town-portal.com and there is more information on the issue at www.smartgrowth.bc.ca, at www.imaginesouthdelta.com.

What would you like to see?

I like reading the letters to the editor to see where everyone's head is at in our little town. This forum is great as well. I must say that I am continually amazed when I read letters such as the one submitted by Al Warner which was published in the DELTA OPTIMIST. Mr Warner likens growth to a a "planetary catastrophe" which is perpetrated by the rich and will cause destruction to our Tsawwassen lifestyle. What a bunch of crap! Mr. Warren goes on in his rant to say that there will be no infrastructure to support any growth in the town core of Tswwassen...also a bogus observation. The real kicker though is when Warner says that "when the rich finally make it, they buy islands estates.....then lock it up to preserve the luxurious living." " The people of Tsawwassen can look at the bigger picture and try to protect and preserve the kind of lifestyle they came here for in the first place".
I guess the question is why did you come here in the first place and how long ago was that? Another question pops up. Is Warner saying me me me and is he denying the rights of my family to live and grow in a community. I think he is, and you know what? That really pisses me off! I am sick and tired of sitting around listening to a bunch of bitter and selfish people telling me how my children are supposed to live. Guys like Warner are incapable of understanding the benefit of thoughtful progress. I would like to hear what you think. Signed, frustrated.

OK, I'm new to this thing so here's my take on this Century Group thing. Is there more risk that we'll end up with a congested mess of cars, ugly conveyor-line-built houses, more pollution, and would I rather just have it the way it is. I can't seem to see the middle anywhere?? What's in the middle? I'd sure like to see some creative pictures and ideas - a whole bunch of alternatives to doing nothing. I can handle the ideas and pictures but I can't handle the pollution. Oh my goodness, am I making sense.

I don't want cars and congestion - I want the middle. Help me to be stuck in the middle with you. God, that shows my age.

Signed, Nellie.

I atttended the event last night and found it to be very informative. Many people take services and infrastructure for granted. Transportation is one of those services. It was enlightening to understand just how much density is needed before simple concepts like bus travel become useful and financially viable.

I think a lot of people just assume that the Government(s) will somehow magically take care of us.

If building more diverse housing on the Sothlands increases access in our community I want to learn more.

Hi there,
Does anyone know if there is another session tonight and the location?

- Inquisitive